EY CEO Outlook: The inside story of Ireland’s biggest ever software deal, with Barry Napier, Cubic Telecom

Graham Reid: Hi, I'm Graham Reid, Partner, Head of Client and Markets at EY here in Ireland. This week Barry Napier, CEO of Cubic Telecom, joins us in the studio. This leading Irish software company made the headlines in November when Japanese firm, SoftBank, took a 51% stake in a deal valuing cubic at a value over €900 million. Barry talks to us about the journey to where Cubic is now and how complaining about his sim card at the age of 18 launched him on his career path. This is a frank and riveting conversation and a fabulous listen.

Richard Curran: Thanks, Graham. Barry, you are very welcome. We have lots to talk about in a fascinating entrepreneurial career so far. Still lots more to go, I'm sure. A career well lived, would you say?

Barry Napier: I'd say well lived and a lot of experiences. A lot of scars so far, but a lot of learnings. And I think the one thing is, you know, the learnings are great and having those connections to talk about them here today is a great opportunity, so thank you.

Richard Curran: People talk about a bit of a roller coaster ride for entrepreneurs. Would you say yours has been that?

Barry Napier: Eh, I would say a roller coaster might be an executive view of it and a luxurious view of it. I'd say more maybe a horse and cart up a boreen somewhere. Uh, it would be a bit more a way of describing it, but I would say to a lot of fun, a lot of education, and I met some amazing people along the way.

Richard Curran: Well, we want to hear about some of that. But before Christmas, uh, shortly before Christmas, the deal was announced that Cubic Telecom SoftBank was taking a majority stake in the business, valued it at over €900 million, over $1 billion. That took a lot of people by surprise who might have been just sort of watching the company from afar and knew a little bit about what you do. Um, were you one of them who was surprised?

Barry Napier: Uh, I'm still surprised in the sense of what the team and I have achieved in a value sense, because we didn't set out to do a value. We set out to do a technology. Just to set the stage; today, Cubic connects about 480,000 cars per month. We have over 18 million cars, but we're in about 10% of connected cars around the world. And our goal is to get to 25% and then obviously to try and get to 40%. So when you look at it like that, I think it's some sensation that an Irish company has been able to get into a global ecosystem and be a player. And I think that's something to be really proud of. The monetary part of it I find very difficult, to be really honest with you, because, you know, it's a by-product of what we were trying to do as a team. We sat down, we took some serious pain. There's times we didn't even get paid.

Richard Curran: You're the you're the first multi-millionaire I've had say it's difficult to deal with the monetary part!

Barry Napier: But it really is because, you know, you always dream on your journey. You dream of a certain point. But for us it was really about building the team building, trying to get the technology right. The technology is very complex, trying to get the technology right and then trying to win a customer. To win an automotive customer takes three years and then you're in three years of a design cycle. So it's not something you just go out and take off the shelf. So it's pretty complex. Uh, and then as a leader of that business, I'm not a complex person. I wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm pretty emotional. I'm a Cancerian. I'm 49. I failed my Leaving, failed my Inter Cert. So, you know, you're sitting down with some real technical people and trying to motivate them. I think when the deal was announced, it was a real proud moment. I think for a lot of us to say that we did it.

Richard Curran: What about for someone not familiar with what you do, you mentioned there some of the stats about your technology and that connectedness in a percentage of cars. So what is it that you do and who are your immediate customers?

Barry Napier: Uh, it was really funny. All my kids growing up said "Dad, what do you do?" When you try to explain it, they say "so you put SIM cards in cars" and we're like, God, no, it's not that. So really, simply, when you get into your car and you turn your car on nowadays, especially, like, in an electrical vehicle, you all have a screen and that screen, then connects but you have to figure out, you don't know where it's connecting. Normally, if it's a Volkswagen branded car, that connects, then, to a cellular antenna, and that cellular antenna then connects back to the IT hub in Germany or wherever the data centre is. That's cubic transiting from your car all the way back to head office. Cubic is managing that, making sure it's safe, making sure it's secure, making sure it's on the best network. So that's what cubic is.

Richard Curran: So is the car company, your customer? And how do they pay you?

Barry Napier: So they pay us... Well, we'll talk about that. They've changed how they pay us because of what happened to us in Covid. But they pay us a software license fee. So it's a great company. It's a SaaS model. And they pay us on a monthly basis for connected vehicles. And then what we've done is designed a set of services and applications that sit inside of that connection. And then we try to drive more revenue for the business in that using analytics services and different types of tools.

Richard Curran: And we can talk a bit about the future there as well. But I want to go back to the past. You're originally from Limerick and the family moved to Dublin. You moved from Limerick to Cabinteely when you were quite young.

Barry Napier: Yes. Born in Rossbrien originally, across the tracks, then moved to Raheen and then we moved up to Dublin. Dad got a job up in Dublin...so let's go. Up we came. We moved into Shrewsbury Lawn in Cabinteely, grew up there, went to Ursuline Convent primary school, and then went to CBC Monkstown and then my mum passed away. She's got a JCV viral infection - it's an infection that distorts the back of your brain and the stem of your brain and just erodes. And there's nothing to be done, about 15 cases a year at the time. Uh, so that happened. That was in May, and Dad said okay, we're out of here. It was pretty bad because it took about an eight-month process for my mother, so she fell into the bath. If you remember, we always used to wash our hair over the bath back then. She used to fall in. So they thought it was an inner ear infection. And it wasn't that at all. It was this infection in the back that they couldn't track. So MRIs and CT scans couldn't locate it.

Richard Curran: What age were you when she died?

Barry Napier: So I was 11. That was a tough time because she ended up becoming paralyzed in her body as such and then becoming brain dead. And we ended up having to turn off the life support system. So that was a real tragic time. Monday the 19th of May at 11:10. It sticks in my brain.

Richard Curran: The impact that must have had on you as an 11 year-old and on your Dad as well.

Barry Napier: So I'd say to you... a challenge that I had is obviously growing up, there was a lot of slagging in the schoolyard, you know, your Mum, your Mum was dying or your Mum was a vegetable. That was kind of in the background because you're about 11 years of age. So that was something you had to deal with going into school each time. I have to say, my school friends are still my friends today, so no reflection on them. It was just you're 11. We were very immature and stuff like that, and I'm very proud of the friends that I have today. I think Dad then just said, okay, you know, let's do something. And the 80s was a tough time in Ireland. So a lot of individuals said, well, let's emigrate. So a lot of people went to Canada, a lot of people went to New York, and Dad decided to pick Chicago. So really hot and really cold. So we did a couple of years over there and Dad said, look, I'm not settling, let's go back. So we did. I did seventh and eighth grade in Chicago. So I got to ride the yellow bus, got to see how it works in the movies. So I would say to you, you know, we started traveling pretty young and experiencing different experiences, then came back in 88, 89, and my Dad came to Dublin and I said, I'm going back to Limerick. So I went back to my Gran, went to JFK on the Ennis road. I was kind of happy there. And he said, you need to come back to Dublin, be with the family. So I moved back up to Dublin again.

Richard Curran: And during all that time you were dealing with an awful lot of change. I mean, it was a bit of a culture shock from Limerick to Cabinteely and then another culture shock to Chicago, while trying to deal with the impact of the loss of your Mam.

Barry Napier: I think the one thing is entrepreneurs, we try not to look back, we try to look forward and I say out of a tragedy, something good comes. And I say that quite openly, that what happened with my mother has really helped me, given me the drive and the perseverance to date. So you kind of put that in a box and you kind of put it on the shelf and you leave it up there and you try not to look at it. And I think that's the challenge that a lot of entrepreneurs have. There's a lot of perseverance. So there's something that's driving them. It's hard rooted in them. Uh, looking back now, becoming a father now, the one thing I look is to make sure that I'm better than what I went through. So I think that's the connection for me, is how you relate to that and make sure that [for] the next ones coming through, it's a better experience.

Richard Curran: So what about school? Were you into school at all? You mentioned there that you failed state exams.

Barry Napier: So obviously being an entrepreneur and the exit that we have, you could say that I'm a class A student at quite the opposite. Right? I had to ask... I had to chat at the Gonzaga lunch last week where I got suckered into... a friend asked me was I doing anything on Friday? And I said, no. And I end up being at the Gonzaga lunch. And I said I was there for the D&I balance, right? Because they were all private school boys. And I went to a community school. Uh, so yeah, I would say to you, my Dad when we came back, put me into Cabinteely Community School and not back into CBC Monkstown. He said I'm going to put manners on you. But sure, when you went there, there was women there. So it was, you know, it was a really great culture, is what I would say to you.

Richard Curran: A different education...

Barry Napier: 100% and like what a diverse bunch down in Cabinteely Community School. Like I see a lot of them today. I bring my kids to school and they're at the school yard with us. So it's just brilliant going back to that community. So, uh, academic is just not me. I love playing with things. I always have loved playing with things. I was wiring my best friends switch in his house the other day, and I'm not an electrician. So nothing scares me in that kind of sense of tinkering with stuff. But I'm not the type of person that will take apart an engine and rebuild an engine. But I love tinkering with stuff. Uh, my friends are engineers, so they're a lot higher quality, so they normally fix up everything that I leave with the spare screws around the house.

Richard Curran: Did you have any idea, though, during those years, what you wanted to do work-wise?

Barry Napier: Uh, I loved sales, always loved sales. I always loved meeting people and everyone said I kind of had the gift of the gab. Obviously, I'm here today, so I hope that goes down well. I would say meeting people and getting to understand people. I love watching people's body language. I love being with people. I love buzzing off people, and I love very quirky people. I'm drawn to quirky people where someone goes, oh, I don't know about them. I'm like, they're brilliant but why? So I'm not shy in that sense. I think that stems back to the departure of my mother. To be honest with you, where I came, I had to ask for something. I was always there where you went home. You'd ask your Mum or your Dad. I went home to an empty house, so I had to do something. So for me, I got very comfortable in that arena asking for something. And then I got, I would say to pretty persistent that I liked nice things. So I like to have a nice car. I like to have nice clothes. So then it was really how do I get that? And that's through work. So I think the first nice thing I bought was a Bianchi bike when I was 14, and it was $2,000, but I got there by shovelling snow in the winter and cutting lawns in the summer.

Richard Curran: To make the money yourself.

Barry Napier: To make the money, and bought my own bike. And like, I went to the shop and paid it with coins and cash and, you know, so for me I was very driven to, you know, if you buy something of quality, you can always sell that. You may not get two grand for it, but you'll get 1200 for it, and then you can get your earnings again and build up and that. So I would say that's where I started getting the buying and selling part of it.

Richard Curran: And that sort of ability to talk and gift of the gab, as you say, helped you at one stage in Dublin, you got a job by going in complaining to the company about something. What Happened?

Barry Napier: So I started in, uh, I left school and I got a summer job in Microsoft and back, if you remember the CD-ROM packages, and that was your job was packing the CD-ROMs. And I got, I think it was a two month, eight week job at Microsoft. And that was it. It was done. It was a rush period. So they were hiring students. And a friend of my Dad came in from Bolton and Company, Michael Bolton, great name from Greystones and said, I have a job in Camden Street if you want to start making signs and rubber stamps. Wasn't the most great thing. Went in and we started doing that. We met Paddy McKillen, we started doing all the signs in Captain America's with him and Ronnie. We built a nice little business. It was great. And then I got a mobile phone, okay. And then the phone didn't work and I went back to the shop. It didn't work. They replaced it. It didn't work again. And the guy in the shop just said, look, you just need to go directly to the distributor, because, look, he says, there seems to be an issue here. So I went down to the distributor, had a bit of an argument with the distributor. He liked me and then called me back and said, would I interview for a job? And then I went working for him.

Richard Curran: How did you like you after the argument? Did you sort of play a bit of a barrister job argumentatively?

Barry Napier: Given my education, I wouldn't say it was a barrister approach. It was a little bit more gung ho.

Richard Curran: Physical presence?!

Barry Napier: No, it was a little bit more of just, look, you're selling crap - what are you doing? You can't do this. So I end up having a good laugh with him. And then he invited me down to his house on a Sunday in Blessington and said, come on down and he cooked me a steak. I still remember to this day that all he cooked was a steak. Like there was nothing else. It was just a steak. And I'm quite friendly with him today. So we had a steak and he said, look, will you come and work with me? It was a company called MCJ. It was starting in the phone - the cellular baby as such, is what I would call myself. It started in that cycle and that's how I got really into the technology side of things.

Richard Curran: But if you follow that career path and your own entrepreneurial journey and what Cubic Telecom does today and its origins, there's a line from going in and complaining about that mobile phone to the industry you ended up in, to the company you ended up building.

Barry Napier: I love...it was very funny - someone asked a question last week at Gonzaga. They said, you know, "did you plan this?" And I said "Yes. To perfection!" Quite the opposite. It's how you fall into things. And I think life is very surreal. I always say water always finds its own level. So you can't force something. So if I go back and I look at yes, I complained. I got into the mobile phones, I went and worked for that company. They were based in Blessington. I was traveling up and down. Uh, I then then said, look, actually, I'm going to open some shops. I hated shops. Retail is detail, you know, when you're in every day. It was just hard, I would say, because I ended up doing multiple locations. So I got rid of those shops, sold them on, and then just got into wholesaling. And I just loved it. I loved the whole barter system. I loved buying something in one country, selling it into another, and really just started building up a business that way. And I thought that was excellent.

Richard Curran: And you started up the business then - Celtic Telecom Consultants. And where did the idea for that come from?

Barry Napier: So, I was selling phones. A guy was coming into the shop selling me phones. A gentleman by the name of Fergus, he worked for a company called Sigma at the time. Uh, he then got offered a job with Denis O'Brien's crew to setting up Digifone so he went in there, and then the Motorola distributor Sigma asked if I'd go and work for them. So I ended up taking that job. I worked there for about four and a half years, built that business up with the team there - lovely people. And, uh, I just said, you know what? I just kind of want to do something on my own. So I said, okay. Fergus, what do you think? He said, yeah, let's do coffee. And he wanted to do Java Junkies. And I was like, no, don't want to do coffee shops. So we said, let's get into mobile phones. So company was registered and the first name that came out was Celtic Tiger Communications and I went absolutely mental. I said, like, how can we call ourselves... We'd be known as Tigger Communications globally, like, it needs to stop. And it was a moment in time. So then because we had CTC registered, Celtic Tiger Communications, we changed to Celtic Telecom Communications which is still there today.

Richard Curran: And one of the big breakthrough parts for that business was when you bought the Irish operations of an international company, BrightPoint.

Barry Napier: Yeah, that was a really great time. That was, like a scene from suits. We were working with this company called BrightPoint. They needed a sales outlet. We were really good sales guys. We had a great business. So they came to acquire us. And then due diligence happens. And then when you're looking at that, you know, you need to get the big wigs in so we started working with Arthur Cox. Arthur Cox was helping us with the due diligence. We got accountants in, and then we suddenly found that there was a hole in their side of their accounts. So all of a sudden they let the CFO go, the CEO go. And next minute they were rudderless. So we saw an opportunity. I jumped on a plane, went to Schiphol airport, met a gentleman called Paul Fanelli, an American guy and said, look, we'll buy the business. And he was, like, what are you talking about, kid? I said, no, no, we'll buy the business. They were a Nasdaq quoted company. They were looking at a company in Ireland that had a bad accounting. They had a hole there and it was just, here's a quick fix. We can just put a Band-Aid on and be a Nasdaq company. It's just a decimal point.

Richard Curran: What age were you that stage?

Barry Napier: I'd say at that age we were 25, 26. So we're like, okay, fine. So we were actually doing a deal. So we then sat down with Arthur Cox and we put a whole deal together and we bought that business. We then went in, I think the company were scared when we walked in the door because they saw two young lads walking in and we said really, really clearly, look, we need to do eight thousand phones a month to survive and we need three months is all we have. So if we don't do it in three months, we're going to be in trouble. And we're doing twenty, thirty thousand phones in three months.

Richard Curran: And that business, which became BPI, you ended up turning it into a 150...

Barry Napier: 155 million turnover - about 850 million or 840 million through that business.

Richard Curran: And you sold it to DCC.

Barry Napier: Sold the assets of that to DCC.

Richard Curran: Now we're going to get on to Cubic Telecom, but we're just going to take a little short break first. So have a listen to this.

Richard Curran: So, Barry. Cubic Telecom. You started investing in Cubic Telecom a little bit before 2011. But really 2011 was when you ran the business and began to change its direction. So what did it do?

Barry Napier: So when we got a knock on the door to say, can you meet somebody? We said yeah. Pat Phelan came in from Cubic. He said that he had all this amazing technology. They were very great at marketing and positioning the business. We said okay. We gave them some money to help them make payroll. And then we said, okay. We started looking at the business and understanding, wouldn't it be great if we took a distribution model to connectivity? And that's exactly what Cubic is today, is distribution of applications and services on a global basis. So the idea was there, and the more that we got into the business, it was a very small company, I think it was 5 or 6 people at the time. But the marketing, the positioning, in fairness, was good. But there was no technology. So there was nothing really there and there was nothing solid that you could build on. So then we just set on a journey, we sat around as a team and said, okay, let's start building something solid. And that's what we did.

Richard Curran: In order to do that, you need money, you need investors, and you probably need to lose money for several years after they've put in their investment. That's just a fact of life if you want to build an international company. And Cubic would have had its eye on the international market from very early on. Was that all difficult to manage?

Barry Napier: I really appreciate you telling me that now. Where were you in 2011?! So we didn't put in... We put in our own money and then, as entrepreneurs do, you run out of money. We thought we'd do it within the time frame and the time ran out. So then we had to go on the road raising money we'd never raised money before. Uh, one thing I'd say to you is you need to have a very good team, and a team that's recognized, of experts. Very early on, I asked Gerry McQuaid to come and join the journey with me, and he's kind of like the Silver Fox. He's the godfather now of mobile phones in Ireland, and worked with Dennis and Barry Maloney and others in the background. Absolute true gentleman, a mentor and mentee is what I would say on the background of this. So Gerry joined on board and then we were trying to raise money. And then my next-door neighbour, Deirdre, her brother, was in NCB stockbrokers. He'd just got married, was going on his honeymoon and when he came back I said come on in for a coffee and hey presto, Shane's still with us today. And he was part of this whole transaction that you see today. So we went out raising money. So I'd say that was a hard part where you said, I can do it myself and then realise, uh, roads running out, there's no money for electricity. We need to go raising money. And that was really hard.

Richard Curran: Were you close to going broke at any stage?

Barry Napier: Multiple times. There were times where we didn't take, uh, payment, the senior leadership team for probably four to six months. Other times the sheriff sat in reception, just to let you know. So that would have happened. So, like, there is a lot of stories in Cubic, but it really is down to the perseverance of the team, is what I would say to you, that really said that they believed in what they did. So in 2011, we raised some money - about 1.1 million. I have to give a call out to Enterprise Ireland. So at the time it was Frank and then it became Julie and now Leo. Absolutely amazing company. They're not a bank, you know. So they were a great support to us on an international basis. And then Qualcomm - we got the biggest chip manufacturer in the world to invest in us back in 2011. That started giving everyone a bit of "what's going on with cubic?" a little bit of an eye. And then I'd say to you, we started really trying to get into Panasonic, HP and Lenovo laptops. And so we were deploying all our technology there, but they just weren't connecting.

Richard Curran: And where you have those investors and maybe things are going well, but maybe they're not going as well as investors would like, is there an awful lot of pressure?

Barry Napier: Uh, I think at one stage there was a shareholder call where myself and Shane, one of the investors, a Canadian company, said are you drunken Irish? Are you just in the pub all the time? And we were breaking our ass. We're like, seriously? So I'd say to investors, the one thing is be transparent, be honest. You know, we've seen how that doesn't work for so many companies, you know, and at the end of the day, they either back you and back the team. And, you know, investors are very savvy, you know, if they're putting money in, yes, they want an outcome, but they're betting on the team, they're betting on the individuals.

Richard Curran: And you would have seen the opportunity then that the motor and automotive industry presented for Cubic. And that has become a huge part of the business. But it's not the only part of the mix. Or is it? Is that is that exclusively what you want to do?

Barry Napier: So in 2013, 2014 Elon Musk was in Ireland, if you remember, he was here for the Web Summit and he drove by in an English registered Tesla...

Richard Curran: You didn't thumb a lift or anything like that..?

Barry Napier: No no, no. I was actually sitting outside the RDS beside him in a car. And I was talking to a gentleman in Nokia called Owen Cruise, and I said, Owen, those cars, they're connected, aren't they? I'm going to find a way of connecting them. And I contacted Qualcomm. We got an introduction to the guys in Tesla in 2014, the 21st of January, and on the 14th of April we were standing with Elon in China, launching the cars with our technology, with China Unicom.

Richard Curran: How did you find him, and how did you get on with him?

Barry Napier: Well, I'm just slightly over six foot. He's taller than me. He comes into your airspace. He's a big lad. He's very serious, and he's very driven and very focused. Uh, and then I had President Liu from China Unicom, who's five foot six on the other side of me, so you can imagine it. Uh, yeah. Very technically driven is what I would say to you but very logical in the process, very simplified logic approach to things as well.

Richard Curran: And at what point did you or anyone in the senior management team realize that this could really be big. I mean a billion dollar company.

Barry Napier: Yeah. When we launched in China and Hong Kong, you know, again, you're an Irish company and there's your two key markets. We got contacted by Audi at the time. They said their connected car program had a problem and they weren't able to launch it. We flew over, we met with the executives in Ingolstadt. They explained to us what the challenge was, and we went back about 50 days later and we brought them back downstairs to the car park and we said, there you go. And they said "okay, you know, when can it work?" "No, no, it's working - it's ready to go." And we did it in fifty days. Now, there was one catch to that. We were a small Irish company, so they had to make the choice whether they wanted to go with that. So they took a punt on the team and put an investment of about €15 million behind us. So that was to really make their product stable. We then launched thirteen markets, and we built out our core network, and we did that all in about twelve to fifteen weeks. So again, the dedication of the team of there was a real goal and a milestone to hit and they went after it. So I'd say to you, 2016, we connected 120 thousand cars that year. And I think we knew we were on to something because if you remember, Satya Nadella came over, he went into the conference centre, and he talked in front of 2,500 people. And he showcased Cubic of how Cubic was using cloud and Azure and building all this stuff in the cloud, that it didn't use physical architecture on the ground, which means it wasn't down to just a certain location. So he really, truly said how a global company...and that really started inspiring us.

Richard Curran: There was a problem which really only showed itself when Covid came along because all of the cars stopped moving. And that was where your revenue model really hit.

Barry Napier: Correct. So from 2016 up until about 2020, we started really getting momentum because we moved across the Volkswagen Group. So from Audi into Porsche and then from Porsche and then into VW and that's where volume comes when the likes of VW and Skoda comes, it's like a tsunami. It's just, here we go. So the numbers started getting really good, really strong. Then you turn 2020 March and you're just looking at the screens in the office. So we have like a full hub where you can see everything going on and all the lines was like the stock exchange just crashed, and it's because no one was allowed to move. So if you remember, we were allowed within two kilometers of our houses, the whole of Europe, Italy got hit really badly and that was it. The cars couldn't move. So our revenue model is when a car moved and was transmitting, we got paid. We were in  about 2018 to 2019, we realized that we needed to go to a software license modelling. So we had started that process. But the majority of the fleet at that time was on the old type of solution.

Richard Curran: So your revenue collapsed.

Barry Napier: 80%. So 80% and we sat down. And obviously, if you think about, you know, our engineers saw what was going on so they can see that nothing's happening. So the second question, if there's nothing happening here, what's happening with the bank? So, uh, I'd say to you that's where I'd say the leadership of Cubic really shone and the team around me, because what we said is, okay, we'll agree that we make no one redundant, okay? We understand what our cash flow is like. To do that, we're all going to have to take a pay cut. So the whole company, we did it on percentages. Everyone signed up to it on the agreement that no one would get made redundant. And during the whole Covid period, we made no one redundant.

Richard Curran: Did you think at that point it could be all over here?

Barry Napier: Uh, I think it was so surreal when you spoke to anyone about Covid at the time. No one understood at the time the mental impact was going to have or anything, or the financial impact. You looked at car companies that were getting supported by their local governments to make sure they kept going. It was very surreal, and I was one of those people saying, look, we're humans, we always go back to what we know no matter what. And then people were saying, you'll never fly, you'll never be in this country... It was a very surreal moment. So I think at that time is where you pause and go, no, no, no, don't make any rash decisions. And I think Tesla went down to $364 a share. That's like 20 X up now. Like things were just absolutely crazy.

Richard Curran: How do you deal with stress, Barry? Are you good with stressful situations?

Barry Napier: If anyone knows me, they normally see me jumping into the sea about ten-to-six in the morning so that's something that's really good. The one thing, how I balance stress is my wife said to me years ago, you need to be present when we had the kids and I wasn't, because I'm an entrepreneur and you put it all into that. So I took time out really early in the morning that didn't impact the family. So, go for a walk, do a bit of a run. Uh, I loved cycling, but that's like playing golf - it's four or five hours to do it. So I found swimming a long time ag, in you go and baptize yourself in the morning for the pressures that are ahead. And it's really good and balances you out well.

Richard Curran: What about the future for Cubic Telecom? SoftBank have bought a majority stake in the business. In many cases, when an entrepreneur, you know, you sell a majority stake, people say oh there's an earnout and then you're going to move on and somebody's going to take over. They're going to take over the whole business. You'll go off and do something else. But the way SoftBank operate, am I right in thinking there's lots of other outcomes here.

Barry Napier: Yeah, SoftBank - so two things - very slow and procrastinated process to a point. And then they have this word I think it's called Nemawashi where you just wake up and they just move. So you're kind of sitting there going through this whole process. Is it going to happen? And they move really quickly. I think SoftBank and the team, they're very inspirational and adventurous innovators. But they're stuck in Japan. So they want to go global. I think what's funny is that, you know in the last weeks of the deal, more individuals or more high power companies came out to try and do a deal with us. And we were like, no one wanted to deal with us. You know, it was private equity. It was always something that was coming at us, but not these real big blue chips. We had one or two blue chips come at us in 2020 and again in 2022 courting us. But I just didn't think they were real, is what I would say to you. And they wanted scale. SoftBank needed to get out of Japan and do something big. And if you look at our portfolio of companies of who we have, we have blue chip companies. So they saw that scale and they saw by combining that what they could do. So we had the conversation of okay, so if you bring your toys and we bring our toys, we can make something magical that will include satellites, just so you know. So you'll see us connecting satellites now and cars to satellites. So they're very innovative. So everything that we do at the moment, from cars to tractor units, they're very innovative. And now you couple that with AI. I think everyone thinks AI is the next thing. But there's one thing before AI is connectivity. AI does not work unless it's connected, okay. And that's where Cubic will have that real strong foothold.

Richard Curran: Do you think they could IPO the business in the future? Would you be interested in that?

Barry Napier: I don't know if I'd be the guy leading the IPO. I think you need the Italian slick suit with the Brylcreem in the hair, you know, in front of the street. I don't think that's me. You know, the little ginger guy or the six foot chubby ginger guy from Limerick wearing a hoodie. I don't know if it's really me and I don't know if it's the team.

Richard Curran: Maybe that's exactly where it's at.

Barry Napier: Yeah but I don't know if it's the team either. I'll tell you what's really exciting. Yes, there's 49% left to play for. Okay. And if you look at it, the SoftBank deal is done in 2022 numbers. We're now in 2024. So so if you think about it, it's already up for them. There has been other knocks on the doors and other opportunities of partnerships there. And they're valued on 2025, 2026 numbers, okay. So already SoftBank looked like they've made a great deal and a great return. If you look at what they've done in Arm. Arm was done at the same time they iPod Arm. That floated at $50. And it was, I think 150 on Monday just gone. So they've done some good bets. You know they get crucified over WeWork and others. But you know everyone has a good bet and a bad bet.

Richard Curran: You have accumulated a significant amount of wealth through your shares in Cubic Telecom. You sold a load of shares. I don't know, I've seen estimates of you might have made 100 million plus. You still have quite a lot of shares in the company. Did you buy yourself anything? Did you spend any of it?

Barry Napier: I ordered a new mini. Just so you know. I ordered a new mini. I love cars, I'll be honest with you. I absolutely love cars. Uh, but for me it's the attention that comes with it as well. And the one thing I've learned being a father is the unwanted attention in the background, because then it falls prey to the kids and one thing I want to do is keep my kids really grounded. So trust me, I have nice cars. I love nice cars. Uh, but for me, first thing is going on a really cool family holiday somewhere. Spend the time with the ones you love and say thanks for backing me.

Richard Curran: What would you like to do after Cubic Telecom? Have you thought about that? Would you go again starting up a company?

Barry Napier: Uh, you'll always say you'll go again, you'll do something. I'll never do something as heavy as Cubic ever again. It was torture, looking back. It really was. It was taxing on the team. Some of the team didn't make it. I asked John Purdy from Ergo to come in and have the locker room chat with my team back in '17, which is "you're great players, but you may not meet meet the final of the league." And he helped me through that. Uh, and you've got to be very conscious that, you know, some people ... along the way ... Really tried and worked really hard, but they just didn't grow and they didn't meet the bar. You know, at certain times I think you go into a different era now. You know, all of a sudden the Cubic is the company that did it, and the team did it. So it's put us into a different stratosphere now. But we're still the same folks. Uh, money, as I said, is one component. And I said to someone the other day, I was asked a question, now that you've made it... Well, I thought I made it been a really good dad. I thought I made it, you know, putting really good technology... Some of the quantum is a by-product of that. And we shouldn't be attributed to that. We should be attributed to the right things in life. I think the one thing is that I'm spending a lot of time with some companies in the early stage and mid stage, and really helping them to say, come on, cop on. What's your roadmap? What are you going after? And really get them focused and help them not make the mistakes I did. That I think is really good fun, is what I would say to you. You get to meet the individual. You know, I was working with one individual this week who completely broke down in my office because they were waiting on something really big to happen, and he's just really struggling with that with the team. That was me three times in Cubic, and I didn't have that bounce, as I call it to do. This individual had the bounce on Wednesday, and on Wednesday evening got what he needed. The email came in and it just makes him feel good. That to me is something that's really good. So it's not a quantum. It's really about helping others or being involved with others on that journey.

Richard Curran: Barry, there are a few questions here that I ask all of our guests on this podcast. You could call it the Quick Fire Round. I'll fire them at you. First of all, what CEO or leader do you admire the most and why?

Barry Napier: So two really, early on I always said my step grandfather Paul Conlon, so he ran CIE at the time. He came into my life pretty late on about 15, 16 years of age, and I wouldn't have had a very tight relationship because I was, like, the step grandson but I was obviously very well connected. But I saw how he had to manage the likes of Charlie Haughey and hearing those stories in the background. Inspirational, how the banks and stuff like that. So sitting in on a Sunday lunch and hearing those stories were absolutely amazing and inspiring is what I would say to you. And then I think if you look at the likes of Satya Nadella, okay, and people always pick, you know, big names. Satya is a very underestimated guy. You know, he's very, very polite. He's very much in the background. But everyone has to remember he is an engineer. He came through that whole business, grew up in that business. And look what he's done to that business. He's made it better than Bill gates. Everyone says it's Bill Gates. Everyone's underestimating Satya. Okay. And then you had the crazy guy. You remember Ballmer jumping around the stage. You know, I think Satya is a very underestimated, cool leader that doesn't look for pat on the back. I think he's excellent.

Richard Curran: And you don't see him jumping around the stage either. Steve Ballmer, wasn't it? Favourite book or film?

Barry Napier: So I'm not really a reader. I have a mild case of dyslexia so I wouldn't be great on that kind of stuff, and things would be confusing for me. People know, they will see that when I'm in a meeting. Sometimes I'll say it three times. So it frustrates people. Favourite movie has to be Heat - Michael Mann. Absolutely great movie, amazing actors. It's a very dark, amazing music. Three hours. What a way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

Richard Curran: First ever meeting of De Niro and Al Pacino on screen, I remember. And they met in the film, there was a cup of coffee they ended up having. It's a great film. Do you have a mantra in business, something that guides you or you follow?

Barry Napier: So if you talk to anyone that's worked with me over the last twenty, twenty-five years, if you ring them, they'll all say to you, Barry will say "no is not an option". Okay. It's very easy to say no. And you know, why do we say no? You don't have to be controversial. You don't have to be argumentative. You just have to figure it out in the business that we're in, software fixes that. So you get to sit with really amazing engineers and you can fix the solution using software. We can touch a car in Brazil from Dublin and we can fix problems. I think that's amazing. So having that in there and having AI, so for me no is not an option.

Richard Curran: Biggest mistake or regret career wise?

Barry Napier: Uh, biggest mistake or regret? I think there's too many of them to have one. You could say AIB, you know, looking back and signing that because, you know, I was young, I was, early to mid 20s, you know, it was easy to sign a piece of paper, it was easy to take a mortgage. Everyone said it was going to be great. That paralyzed me in my own business. It paralyzed me and my relationship with my kids. My wife, I didn't sleep, litigation went on for ten years and I think a lot of people will relate to that, you know, it's not like the bank comes in and does a deal and you move on. It doesn't happen. It's procrastination. It goes on. They've a FOMO, a fear that if they sign something, it comes back in their career. So I would have said to you that whole time of 2004, 2006 and taking out mortgages, biggest mistake in my life.

Richard Curran: Just on that point, because another wing of the bank would have been an investor in Cubic Telecom and done very well. If somebody who invested in Cubic Telecom at the beginning, what sort of return have they got on there?

Barry Napier: So, there's a couple of early on people who put in small amounts of money at the time who were very grateful, and at the time because we really needed they got 32 x the money, so they made more money in the same time [than] if they put the money into Apple. So cubic gave them a bigger return than Apple would have. So I think that's great. And I think it's kind of cynical. I think that, uh, AIB got a huge return through their starter fund but again, they took the risk, okay. And they put the money in so they're entitled to the return back, two different sides of the house.

Richard Curran: When you're finished this job, what would you like people to say about what you did, what you achieved and how you did it?

Barry Napier: Uh, I don't think they should focus on me. I think they should focus on the company, and they should focus on the team, and they should focus on Ireland, is what I would say to you. We underestimate ourselves as a nation. We're always giving. If you look at it, we've a great reputation for giving, we've a great reputation for having energy and being very nice people. Cubic really just shines that out. The team shines that out. I think the great thing is that we're able to say that it wasn't a company with technology from Israel or from Palo Alto, it was a company in Ireland that did it. And by the way, it's only 51%. So there's still a bit of the story to go. So keep an eye out. I think it'll be a bit of fun.

Richard Curran: What piece of advice would you have, Barry, for someone starting out as a CEO or a leader in an organization?

Barry Napier: Uh, don't think you have all the answers. You know, try to really connect with people the likes of me, Bobby Healy, Alan Coleman. Like, there's loads of CEOs out there. There's loads of amazing female CEOs out there, and there's people that are willing to help and give you the stories. It's not about money. Money only gives you one answer. You need to have that education or that conversation with someone that says, here's the pitfalls and you make sure you do it quicker rather than later. So I think having that connection. Enterprise Ireland has been very good at connecting those. Okay. You've got the Ernst and Young program and now I'm in Endeavor, uh, you know, and that's sponsored by Edge and the lads, which is brilliant and a great community. Having those kind of communities there, I think that's what they need to tap into. And I think CEOs need to give back.

Richard Curran: Well, Barry, it's been a pleasure talking to you about a roller coaster. In many ways that has been your career as an entrepreneur and that is only so far. Congratulations on what you've achieved and the very best of luck for the future.

Barry Napier: Thank you very much for giving me the time to listen to me this morning. Thank you.

Richard Curran: We hope you're enjoying this EY podcast CEO Outlook series. Remember, you can catch previous interviews we've done with lots of other CEOs. Until the next time, thanks for listening. Bye, bye.